"A Doll's House" Act 2 Response

3/27/2015

Please listen to the audio recording of Ani DiFranco’s cover of the song, “Wishin’ and Hopin’.” Here is one excerpt of the lyrical content:

Show him that you care, just for him
Do the things that he likes to do.
Wear your hair just for him,‘cause
You won’t get him, thinkin’ and a prayin’
Wishin’ and hopin’.

In your Primary Post, you should:
(1) argue that such gender roles of dominance and submission still exist in today’s society; OR

(2) argue that today our society no longer desires such gender specific behaviors, and that true love and
marriage is based on mutual respect.

Your Secondary Response Post can:
(1) challenge your colleague's points, OR
(2) make connections to your own lives, OR
(3) support and defend a shared view, OR
(4) somehow create a dialogue about the characters' actions and choices

***To add depth to your discussion, you may wish to discuss the irony of Ani DiFranco singing this song.

Part One Expectations (respond to the prompt above): 200-250 words, quotes from Act 2 AND "Wishin' and Hopin,'" minimal errors in grammar and usage, thoughtful and thorough writing. Please use the assigned "pen name" given to you in class

Part Two Expectations (read everyone's first responses, select two that interest you, and respond to their ideas): 100-150 words EACH, minimal errors in grammar and usage, thoughtful and thorough writing. Please use the assigned "pen name" given to you in class.

3/27/2015 01:43:04 pm

As much as most people would not like to admit it, gender roles of dominance and submission do still exist today and will always be evident (not to sound like a downer). In the song, "Wishin’ and Hopin," the first few lines have to do with appearance for a man, "Wear your hair just for him." Also, in act two of "A Doll's House" Helmer begins to talk down upon Nora as if she is a little kid when they are rehearsing dancing. "Nora, its too violent." "No no, this is no good at all." "You're dancing as if you're life depends on it." Also, in "Wishin and Hopin" the lyrics also say, "Just wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin', plannin' and dreamin' his kiss is the start, that won't get you into his heart," it's almost as if the singer is stating how the way to a man's heart is almost a set of rules all women are expected to know. In today's society women seem to be at fault when men commit crimes against them such as abuse and it really questions the idea that females are to have this imaginary book of expectations memorized when going about daily life and men are to be able to be the dominant ones who are capable of being head of the family or the relationship.

3/29/2015 10:03:27 am

I agree, even though the gender roles are not as strict as the novel's time period, it still existence. Like you said, females usually would do little things for their partner that would be labeled as submissive. Doing their hair just like their partner likes it indirectly puts them in a submissive role; with them knowing or not. As for the male, in society, it seems like it is mandatory for them to act dominant; for example, supporting their partner in a relationship.

4/2/2015 04:03:14 am

I agree with you and your statement of gender roles of dominance still exist today. All women, no matter how old will do many things to catch the attention of men. They dress quite nicely, go out of their way to stand out compared to other women, find common interests within themselves and the man who is appealing to them. However I disagree with your statement of women being at fault when men commit crimes against them. Even though can be dominant at times it doesn't mean that they have a right to lash out on women. It's never anyone's fault, they just have to control their anger.

3/27/2015 02:12:21 pm

I believe that in today’s society no such gender specific behaviors are desired and that marriage and true love are mutual. This is my view because of my take on Ani DiFranco’s song and from Act 2 of A Doll’s House. After listening to the song I believe that it is about what a woman does to make the man she loves feel special and to continue loving her “So if you're looking for love
You can share
All you gotta to is hold him
And kiss him
And love him
And show him that you care.”
This excerpt from the song tells me that all the woman has to do is make the man feel special and show that she cares about him in order to keep him, as anyone of any gender would do in a relationship that they wanted to continue or strengthen; mutual love and respect. I am also aware of the songs Irony due to the singer’s differed view from what the song was initially supposed to be about, my argument is more attached to its original version and tone. Also in Act 2 of the play the quote “Good. Then we’ll share everything, Nora - as man and wife. As it should be.” (Ibsen 37) shows me that even back then the male dominated way of the world wavered to true love and affection which paved the way the world is today where both genders are equal. I believe that this quote reflects what an ideal world ought to have and what the future should hold, which can connect the book’s relevance to today’s society by showing a hint of it.

3/27/2015 02:14:19 pm

In today’s society, gender roles of male dominance and female submission still exist. In A Doll’s House, Nora is forced to hide her secret of borrowing money and getting in trouble with the band from Torvald, instead of actually telling him. When he comes home, she tries to stall and distract him from Krogstad’s letter, saying “But don’t read anything now. Nothing ugly should come between us until all this is finished” (Ibsen 46). This shows she is not taking authority over him and telling him truthfully that his life depended on her decision, and instead was afraid of his reaction and losing his regard.
The song “Wishin’ and Hopin’”, originally sung by Dusty Springfield and in this case covered by Ani DiFranco, illustrates well the role of women in romance. The song dictates that “if you're lookin' to find love you can share/All you gotta do is hold him and kiss him and love him/And show him that you care,” which makes it seem like winning over a heart is an easy step-by-step process, involving the woman kissing up (pun intended) to the man and doing things she normally wouldn’t do. It also says that in order to show a man she cares, a woman has to “do the things he likes to do/Wear your hair just for him.” This de-individualizes a woman, making her do things she might not be comfortable doing, just to please a man. Instead a woman should be herself and show her affection in her own way, whether it be in the ways the song describes or something else, something more meaningful. At one point the song refers to this as “true love”, but that is far from the truth.

3/27/2015 02:16:33 pm

I definitely believe that gender roles of dominance and submission still exist in society today, but only in certain situations. Although these roles are not as severe as they used to be, I have definitely witnessed females trying to change themselves for the attention of another person. The line in the song “Wishin’ and Hopin” that says “Do the things that he likes to do” immediately makes me think of a puppet on a string, bending over backwards to please the person in control. Unfortunately some women believe that they must morph into the desired dream girl of their romantic interest. The automatic response to this is typically negative and some may even think of it as backwards, but I think certain people like the idea of trying to earn one’s attention and please them. I’ve come across individuals that act a certain way so that they get their desired crush and don’t even seem to mind because they really like that person. Another line in the song that supports this idea is “You won’t get him, thinkin’ and a prayin’…” I can somewhat understand how a person may jump to the conclusion to change themselves so they are noticed by who they want. It’s definitely an approach that may not be for everyone, but might work even it’s not completely honest. Overall, the girl might be seen as submissive, but if she ends up with who she wanted, then I believe she still possesses some dominance herself. This submissiveness may just work in her favor.

3/28/2015 06:52:55 am

I can see where you’re going with this, that sometimes women bend to the stereotype simply because they want to. Sure, it could work, but at some point farther down the road in the relationship, her true self will show and it will be different from the person she was when she was trying to get her man. Of course, at that point, the couple will probably be too close to even care, but you never know. I also have to add that the song “Wishin’ and Hopin’” makes winning a man’s heart seem like a simple step-by-step process, which, like most things, it clearly isn’t. There’s a lot more to it involved than displays of affection. It’s also ironic how Ani DiFranco covered this song, seeing as how she is a big advocate of feminism, and this song definitely does not support her views.

3/27/2015 03:48:08 pm

Everyday it's seen, there's no denying that gender roles-men having dominance and woman being submissive-is still alive in today's society as it was in the 1800's, not on the same level, but the major ones that were there in that day still are here today. Woman today are as dependent as woman in the past, "I most definitely will have to, yes, Torvald. But I'm useless without your help...Yes, look after me, Torvald, please. Promise me that, please?" in a way woman place these standard's on themselves. Today woman still ask of their men to take care of them, to handle everything for them, or they do it to keep men happy, purposely putting themselves in the submissive role. I know a lot of people say they are just stereo types, but stereo types come from somewhere. As a whole, woman like to be submissive and men love to be dominant, which is why that is the way it is. "Show him that you care, just for him
Do the things that he likes to do" the singer is saying how woman show much they care for the men, it's the woman's decision, and they're deciding to give the power to men.

3/27/2015 04:46:22 pm

Even in today’s society gender roles of dominance and submission still exist. Yes, people do find true love, but men are still considered the dominant figures in a relationship. Woman, today, are still expected to make their men happy in any way they can from looking pretty to taking care of him. In Ani DiFranco’s song “Wishin’ and Hopin’”, this idea of women being expected to act a certain way for their man is showcased. The lyrics “do the things that he likes to do” shows how a woman’s job is to please her husband because that is the only way to keep him around. Nora, in A Doll’s House, is an example of this. In act two she states “Don’t worry, I’ll look beautiful for you” to her husband. This shows how Nora needs to do what she can to please her husband in order to get favors from her husband. Women are still treated as though they are less than men. Men have a higher image in society of being the dominant figure and provider. Women do whatever they can to please their husbands because they are put in a situation where they have to.

3/28/2015 11:56:43 am

In today's society, there are such gender roles that still play a role in relationships. Typically, the female acts more submissive in order to gain the attention of someone she is attractive to. Note, in Ani Difranco “Wishin' and Hopin'“it states that a girl would usually "do the things that he likes to do, [like] wear your hair just for him". Rather than acting extremely submissive, the female would do little actions/body language that would bring out the dominance in a man. Relating this back with Nora, she tells her husband that she "can't dance tomorrow if [she] doesn't practice the steps for [her husband]" (Ibsen 45).Both sources portray a female, who does actions or says statements that would empower the male thus encouraging his dominance in the relationship.

3/28/2015 04:20:33 pm

Society today does not worry as much about gender specific behavior as they did in the past. True love and marriage is also based on mutual respect. Yes, females tend to change the way they carry themselves when they’re around someone they like, but guys also do the same thing. It is human nature for us to make a good impression of ourselves in front of people to be liked. I don’t think it has to do with dominance or submission.
“Do the things that he likes to do.
Wear your hair just for him,‘cause
You won’t get him, thinkin’ and a prayin’
Wishin’ and hopin’.”
To “do the things that he likes to do,” for example, if a guy is into basketball, the girl that likes him might begin to take interest in it. This applies to all genders when they like someone, not just females. The song encourages females not to change themselves just to get someone else’s attention. Nowadays, people worry more about what each person has to offer in the relationship.
As for gender specific behaviors, people are more comfortable than they were back then to step out of the gender boundary. Girls can wear pants instead of dresses and even guys in Korean pop bands wear eyeliner. It is more accepted today than it would be back then.

3/29/2015 10:08:05 am

Touching upon your reference of a male's role, I feel as if there are more restricted thus favoring the dominance role. Referring to your comment about Korean pop bands allowing males to wear makeup, I feel as if it is acceptable due to their culture; while in the U.S. they would be labeled in a negative tone due to the lack of "submissive traits" being embraced in this country among males.

3/29/2015 11:57:30 am

Today there is still gender roles even though a lot has changed. Women work now and don't have to rely on men like Nora has to rely on her husband, but there is still some gender stereotyping. Many people stereotype and don't know it. When you think of a man you think of some one who works hard and doesn't cry. They have pride just like Helmer does. We can see his pride when he says "people would start to think I didn't have a mind of my own"(35). When he says this he is talking about how he would get made fun of by coworkers saying his wife has control over him. This is similar to a man being "whipped" today. Woman also still have stereotypes. It is more acceptable for a woman to be sensitive than a man. This is another example of gender stereotyping. Woman can be sensitive but men can't. This holds onto the stereotype of woman being weaker. We can see how Nora's husband thinks of her being weak by him calling her "skylark" and little bird. Many things have changed, but there are still stereotypes.

3/29/2015 01:05:10 pm

I believe that gender roles of dominance and submission still exist in today’s society. However, I believe that society looks down upon dominance and gender specific behaviors. There are some marriages that are true love and based on mutual respect. However, there are still marriages where it’s an arranged marriage or marriage based on wealth and status. I personally know of arranged marriages where they don’t love each other at all or marriages where it is clear that it’s gender specific. In the song, it seems like the woman is making all the moves or is the one trying to satisfy him, “Wear your hair just for him”. A woman has to do certain things to make her man happy is what the song is trying to say. This brings up the idea of submission. I believe that in the beginning of some relationships, a woman might put on a front so she can keep her man happy and satisfied. However, deeper in the relationship, the woman lets go and shows her true self. In the play, Helmer doesn’t see Nora in an adult way and kind of treats her like a child. “The child commands and I’ll obey” (Ibsen 46). When he says child, in context, it has a negative connotation. A child is always depending on someone. A child is immature and needs rules and restrictions. When Nora is called a child, I think it’s emphasizing the submissive role of a woman and the dominance of a man.

3/29/2015 04:10:08 pm

To say that our society no longer desires gender specific roles or behaviors is wishful thinking in my opinion. Gender specific behaviors still exist today, however, some might say that it isn't as prevalent and there are some cases where the roles are reversed completely. In today's society one might see a stay at home dad--though it is rare--but there is still the belief that men should be the bread winners and women should know how to cook and clean. And naturally the bread winners have the ultimate say so in family affairs, and as a result, it is the women who are expected to be submissive in the eyes of society. Also society and business shut down women by giving them lower wages than their male counterparts which may foster some dependence on the male if they have a larger check. Female submission is shown in the lyrics "Wishin and Hopin" with the lines "Do the things that he likes to do" where the wife submits to the husbands whims.
I will say however, that marriages in today's society tends to be about love and mutual respect and less about arrangements and titles. The two people learn about one another and care for each other before they make a commitment. Be that as it may, in some countries arrange marriages are still practiced. These relationships aren't built on respect and at times the two involved may end up resenting one another. Although they don't seem unhappy in their marriage, Helmer's condescending attitude and calling Nora a child, "The child commands and I'll obey" (Ibsen 46) would suggest that he doesn't respect Nora as a husband should. He sees her as a dependent, not and equal.

3/30/2015 10:14:05 am

I think that dominant and submissive roles exist today. I think it's defiantly less likely, but it still exists. If anything an example of this would be domestic violence. A far too present violence in our society domestic violence is an extreme manifestation of dominant submissive roles. In the story even though Torvalds never hits Nora he has moments of verbal abuse. It's thought of that in every relationship there should be a stereotypical male role and a stereotypical female role. This is evident by a politically incorrect, yet common idea that in a same sex relationship one persons "the guy". Other modern examples of these gender roles include slut shaming. Somehow this is still a relevant concept, but when a women is considered s slut she’s berated unswervingly while men who “play the field” are considered more masculine.

3/30/2015 12:15:10 pm

I feel that gender roles are somewhat still apparent in today's society. Obviously the presence isn't as severe as it was in the time that Nora lives in, but they are still here. In Ani DeFranco's song "Wishin' and Hopin'" she says " just do it, And after you do, you will be his." The phrase "Just Do It" is an example of the submission of woman in today's world. Telling a woman to do something without any room for objection just to get into a man's heart is wrong and shouldn't have to be done. A woman should not need to only "Do the things that he likes to do" and "Wear your hair just for him" to win a man over --- there should be much more involved.
Torvald never respected Nora in any sense. He always referred to her as child, little one, or other demeaning pet names. When Torvald says ""The child commands and I'll obey," he is ridiculing the idea that he may for once do what his wife would like to do. The idea that this happening is so ridiculous is disgusting to me. If your woman wants something, the man should be willing, if not able, to provide this for her (to an extent, of course -- nothing crazy!!)

3/31/2015 02:18:44 pm

During the current time period gender roles are not very prominat and flexiable yet they still do exisit with the male domance.In Ani Difranco's,"Wishin' and Hopin'", she explains how you cannot win over a man's heart by "Just wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin'
Plannin' and dreamin' his kisses will start.That won't get you into his heart",is like the way Nora just wants to have that of affection from Torvald , but she does not do anything to actually get the attention shes craving but she has to do things that he wants her to do.During today's society we believe that man are expected to like to pay for dinner and woman are like expected to stay home when their kid are sick.Nora doesn't just want to be like a possesion to Torvald,"Helmer: You're my prize possession, why can't I watch you ?... You're mine Nora:Don't speak to me like that tonight (Ibsen 54)".

3/31/2015 02:45:57 pm

Gender roles definitely still exists today inside homes, workplaces, and throughout society. Contrary to popular belief, males are often victims of gender roles too. This is evident in the role of a father in the household. Unlike the term stay-at-home mother, stay-at-home father has a negative connotation because society expects men to be men to be the provider. Helmer stated, “You are a wife and a mother before everything else… Don’t you understand your place in your own home? Don’t you have an infallible guide? Haven’t you got religion? Helmer’s statement was shocking because society has made it seem as if the roles of a mother never applies to a father, which makes Helmer dumbfounded because he feels as if he cannot fulfill these roles. Similar gender roles as this still exist in today’s society because women are often more likely to be given custody of children; men are seen as stern and strong, so society views them as not being able to show as much affection and love as a mother would. This strengthens the stereotype that men can’t perform “motherly duties”.

As far as how gender role applies to women today, women are often seen as having to be dependent on men for safety and financial reasons. In most fairy-tales it is the prince that saves the princess. Women are not expected to be as brave as men. Most jobs requiring dangerous procedures like construction, firefighters, and the army are dominated by their male counterparts. This is not because women aren’t able to perform these tasks like men but because women aren’t seen as being tough enough to thrive in these situation. Female workers also earn significantly less than the average male workers today in the USA. The wage gap is a continuation of the belief that men are the breadwinners. In “A Doll’s House” Nora stated, “My husband has just been made the new manager of the Joint Stock Bank… he gets huge salary and a fair share of bonuses…” (Ibsen, 12). This quote just proves that society expects men to earn the wages because while Helmer was working as a lawyer Nora only stayed at home and did “bits and pieces” of work.

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4/2/2015 03:27:08 am

I don’t think women should have to center her whole life on a man. I do believe she should love him and help him with anything but only to a certain extent. If a woman believes she’s being ruled by a man than she is better off alone, if in a relationship there is no mutual agreements than there is no relationship at all. A woman in this age is able to provide for herself without the help of a man most single moms accomplish this every day. Even marriages there are some cases where the woman is the provider for the house or makes the most income in a household. I do believe that if a woman does have a man occasionally she can do things for him that he does like but that should be a mutual agreement. If she does something in return he should do the same.

4/2/2015 04:14:28 am

I believe that Ani DiFranco’s cover of the song, “Wishin’ and Hopin’ many of the things that she says in the song are still very common in today’s society. When a woman finds a new love interest they will go completely out of their way to get noticed by him. They will dress much more appropriate and do their hair a certain way and overall look much more presentable. They will try new things whether they like it or not just to find a common interest between them and the man they like. This can very much relate to Nora. Throughout the play there’s many examples of how Nora does any little thing possible to impress and satisfy her husband Torvald. For example when Nora approaches the macaroons she knows how badly she wants to eat but when Torvald tells her that she shouldn’t eat them she restrains herself and doesn’t eat them. She also dressed and danced a certain way just for him as well.

4/2/2015 04:28:02 am

Such gender roles as shown in the story line can relate to society today but personally I believe that these gender roles are slowly making their way out of this generations mindsets. People now a days focus on their feelings toward that person and try to maintain healthy relationships that are centered around equity. Through the media you can see the lines being blurred within relationships. There isn't really female dominant and male dominant roles anymore. Today there are more women out in the work field and more men staying at home with their children. This connects to A Dolls House because based on society Nora was supposed to be a housewife and mother to her kids. Her husband treats her as a child without any real use or abilities. Nora shows her want and need by rebelling against Torvald in little ways; for instance sneaking macaroons and secretly saving money...etc

4/2/2015 04:38:11 am

I would choose the 1988 prompt, since Nora somewhat reminds me of Jane in the Red Room. This novel answers this question since most of Nora's responses are silent and internalized. The playwright Henrik Ibsen utilizes moments of internalization to represent external expression in his characters Nora Helmer, a woman too bold for his husband and societal norms. These moments, though mental, provide the suspense and climax of A Doll's House.

4/2/2015 04:38:43 am

whoops. wrong blog @_@

4/2/2015 05:52:41 am

Gender roles of dominance and submission still exist today. I feel like this topic will never disappear because people still do it now. The man is always the one that women have to do everything for and the men just sit there and chill and they are the ones that have the jobs while the women stay hope. That is how the world sees everything but not everyone is like that. The song just shows me that the women have to do everything to make the men feel special. This is like Nora because she basically does everything that Torvald wants her to do. Women have the right to have authority too.

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